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will Washington ever be one of the elite States for lacrosse?
Submitted by godofallhumanity on Wed, 2006-04-19 09:27.
Do you guys think the state of Washington will ever be able 2 compete with east coast greats like Philadelphia, Massachusetts and Vermont? Do we have enough supporters, followers, or potential.
schools
schools could help out majorly. The only reason why my school, Woodinville, won't start a team is because "they don't have enough intrest." I believe that if they start a team they will have many more tryouts than they expect. The only reason why every school does not have a team is because lacrosse is not being advertized in WA enough, and the schools themselves are not willing to help in that advertising.
Need WIAA Sanctioning to Grow
WA lacrosse needs to be sanctioned as a varsity sport by the WIAA to gain legitimacy at the HS level. This will help the sport gain media coverage and develop interest, followers, and supporters that will, in turn help its popularity grow. Larger numbers of players, coaches and officials will give this state all it needs to reach "elite" status.
Why have the high school atheltic directors not requested WIAA sanctioning since it was turned down many years ago? Surely by now there are enough schools and players involved to gain sanctioning.
A.D.'s
I wish athletic directors would go to WIAA and have this fine sport sanctioned. They will not because, as in the case of a Skagit County AD, lacrosse is a "communist" sport. The AD's in this state cannot see past baseball; most do not even know what lacrosse is. And heaven forbid the lacrosse community actually go knocking on our AD's door demanding some recognition. Lastly, as long as the same community continues to vote down levies to pay for the necessities of education, it would not matter if the AD's went to WIAA and begged for recognition because they could not pay for it.
Will we be elite?
I think that WA lacrosse will be among the elite, but not for a little longer.
We have players who are going to play college lacrosse with great east coast schools, but as a whole I don't think we are quite there yet.
Even so I think we have improved greatly over the past few years, and as I've heard Mercer and Issaquah beat a Maine team, thats GREAT!
I think we could potentially be considered elite,
but at the moment I don't think we've reached that point. But like I said, we're getting noticed more and more each year, and each team seems to be getting better, so I conclude my comment with -- it's possible, but I don't believe right now that we are.
Washington Lacrosse
I think that Washington should conitnue to focus on it's growth as a state, and not worry so much about the outside competition. I think sometimes people can get wrapped up in a lot of we could beat them, because they beat this team etc. Right now, Washington Lacrosse has grown so much in the last few years, and the competition has gotten better, Both DI and DII, the University teams are getting better. But it will still be a long time until Washington can stack up to a state like Colorado, let alone some of the east coast hotbeds, so let's all enjoy watching MI, BI, ISSY, Garfield, and Vashon all beat up on each other, as it looks like this year in DI, the playoffs are going to be very competitive, and in DII, the new teams that are having such good success has been great for Washington Lacrosse. IN fact, it looks like in DII, there may be a team with a winning record, 8-4, or even 9-3 that may miss the playoffs, so DII playoffs should be real fun as well. Keep improving our kids, keep teaching our kids the game, and enjoy it.
"respect the game"
Good Points
Washington lacrosse is growing and getting better as is evidenced by the programs that are starting to recruit from the state. Although it's great to see programs like MI and Issaquah beat teams from the East Coast, I wish we'd focus more on developing some West Coast rivalries. Seeing the Starz teams do well against California, Arizona and Oregon teams is a much better indicator of our improvement as a state. I'd like to see some of our programs set up home and home trips against teams from San Diego, Denver, and Phoenix. I think we need to prove we're the best in the West before we try to tackle the East Coast and their long tradition in the sport.
Good point
These Starz tournaments will have to occur in order for our best players to be recognized along with the best from the west and everywhere else in the country. As one poster stated, until our college teams go varsity the growth here will be slow. It is much less expensive for a financially strapper east coast college lax coach to go recruit the kid playing accross town as oppoosed to accross the country in Washington. The elite tournaments give these coaches a place to go and do their one stop shopping for recruits. The growth needs to continue in both the HS boys and girls game. We will be a force some day.
I think washington lax WILL be elite but.....
i took my wife home to new york and the one thing she commented on was ANYWHERE we went there were lacrosse sticks on front lawns! right now lax here is still VERY exclusive! when we say "washington lacrosse" it also includes college!! great HS ballers here want to go to cali or somewhere east to play.... when our hs talent starts staying home and helps build better college squads then we'll be there. lets face it Mercer v Huntington (LI) is a toss up, who here is hanging with hofstra, lemoyne, albany, cuse, or adelphi! WE CANNOT JUST FOCUS ON HS!! great college tradition is what drives east coast HS players.
L
No way!
Potential yeah, but not as long as lacrosse in WA is political. Get kids out playing with good coaching,feeder programs. there's good people in LAX but the mickey mouse games that go on here aren't helping.
Not until...
...We take the hockey player and football player out of the the lacrosse player. Lacrosse is a game of finesse not physical prowess. Yes checking is part of the game but watch a D1 NCAA game. Count the number of body checks you see. 3 at the most. Do you know when the different Iroquois tribes play one another they wear no protective gear and only wear protective gear when playing non-native teams?
HELLO!! WAKE UP CALL TO WASHINGTON LACROSSE!!
Go watch a mens' club game how many do you see? 30 or 40? Who is coaching the players here? Mens' "CLUB" players.
Until the players in this state learn to use their stick instead of their body, Washington will not be an elite lacrosse state like NY, MA, ME, MD,CT (for you failing geography that is New York (including Long Island), Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland and Connecticut).
Yea whatever
Both Mercer Island AND Issaquah beat the Maine state champ on Friday and Saturday. How do you explain that? Plus Mercer beat North Carolina state champs and runner up which are also very good teams. If Mercer and Issaquah can beat them, then so could Garfield and Bainbridge. That means about 25% of the teams in our league could beat maine champs.
Not a fair argument
You explain that, H Kurzl, by saying simply this: That maine team hopped off a 6 hour plane ride only to practice right before their mercer game. What was it like 1 am their time? Plus that was their first game of the season. Those kids have never played together before, and lost 16 seniors. Seemed as if Coach O'Hearn knew all of their plays, calling them out from the sidelines. Did they practice together? Plus, Issaquah was dominated by the Maine team, but their downfall was a result of playing all their kids and backup goalie. It would be very interesting to see how well Mercer and Issaquah fared if they took a trip to Maine halfway through their season.
It IS a fair argument
Mercer hopped off a plane over spring break to play the NC teams and beat them both. Their Airplane ride has nothing to do with it. Look at the national rank of Bainbridge, Mercer, and the others, their ranked in the top 200 in the nation.
Oh please, halway through
Oh please, halway through their season i guaruntee you Maine would have beaten Mercer. Their team was like 115 in the nation right? And then lost 16 seniors. But you cant honestly argue that Maine wouldnt have probably beaten Mercer if mercer had been in the same situation with their home opener, travels and such.
No one is saying Mercers a bad team.
You don't get beat 15-7
You don't get beat 15-7 because of bad circumstances, MI and Issaqauh both showed who was boss, and I highly doubt that that team could make an 8 goal difference after playing a few games. Just goes to show WA is legit.
WA
yea you could say WA is legit, but they were playing the MAINE state champs. given that maine lacrosse is not something to be laughed at it is certainly not the same caliber as maryland, new york or mass. the good programs from these states are the teams that WA teams must beat to become elite an state.
maine
true about the teams beating ME state champs, but maine is not that strong of a lacrosse state. its good that northwest teams are beating east coast, but those east coast teams are still not the elite teams. also people are overlooking the skill of the BC teams. BI has been going up every year for the last decade. these teams are great competition and should be utilized by northwest teams as much as possible.
i agree
I definitely agree that you don't have to go across the country to see good lacrosse, in colorado the play is highly skilled and yet physical. Personally, I enjoy the hockey element of lacrosse. If you go to a box lacrosse game are there going to be hits? absolutely. is the level of play very high? yes. In canada the box game transcends to the field and in BC there are physical and yet highly skilled teams. Yeah they might be a bunch of thugs but i bet that a good high school age club team from BC could beat any varsity team in Washington. But I don't think we should be worried about the 'elite' status of lacrosse in Washington. It's a booming sport with fierce competition at the varsity level. Players are devoting themselves to lacrosse and it definitely shows (any game this year between MI, Garfield, Issy, and BI).
Lets be clear...
Comments like "go watch a Men's club game" to see how poor players these coaches are is just ignorant. I don't think you play Lacrosse, or at least, still don't. Without the Club players who's play you are deriding, you are eliminating more than 45 coaches in the Seattle area- many of which played NCAA Division I. Additionally, Club players in New York, Maryland, Virginia, Penn, New England, etc. all coach, they all commit penalties when they play. Kids in high school don't play the same rules, nor are their games officiated the same way for numerous reasons including concern for injury. If you want to see some different ball movement, some other offensive sets, some other types of shooting- come see a club game. Hitting is not the focus of the game at any level. I don't know any club player who coaches and encourages kids to "thug it up". Rather, I know several coaches who are not men's club players who don't discourage it at all.
Lacrosse simply hasn't reached the number of players anywhere else. We have around 3,500 Lacrosse players here. In Baltimore, there are more than 10,000 youths playing. We need more players, coaches and officials for youth players, that is how we will be an elite Lacrosse state.
check the rosters
If you checked the rosters of the most successful east coast HS programs you would see hockey players. The Gait brothers the Powell brothers to name a few all grew up playing hockey in addition to lax. Gary and Paul Gait's sons played hockey before lacrosse. All of those other lax hotbeds are also hockey hotbeds. This is the only part of the country where people don't understand the similarities of the 2 sports. If you had ever watched a hockey game you would see the similarities to lax, and that hockey is even more of a finesse sport than lax. The price you pay for being less skilled than your oppponent is the hit you take for dropping the ball. The violence in lax is a factor of the number of ground balls. Until youth level coaches here teach catching and throwing skills above game skills there will always be hitting. If you don't want to get hit go play golf.
true
you make a great point in saying that the reason lacrosse can be phsyical is due to the amount of ground balls. true, the less a team can catch the more likely they will count on being physical. however, i dont see youth coaches teaching how to hit instead of throwing and catching. i think the problem lies in the ignorance of new players that want to be able to practice thier hitting for football. too many kids start playing lacrosse to be able to "hit kids whenever they want to as well as slap them with a stick and have it all be legal". Not until the majority of kids start realizing the game is meant to be a finesse game will WA be able to compete against quality east coast teams.
Finesse
No I do not still play the game but I am involved. Hockey is a great sport and I too grew up playing hockey. I understand the athletic similarities. Hockey, unlike lacrosse, allows all sorts of contact where as in lacrosse contact should be incidental like basketball. I have seen the men's club leagues, A & B, and will readily admit there are some decent players who make a concerted effort to play lacrosse not modified football or hockey. Unfortunately, these players are not coaches.
What I meant by taking the hockey and football player out of the lacrosse player is not to remove the athleticism, but to remove the physical elements of those games. And while coaches do not actively coach physical lacrosse, they still fail in not educating their players that this is not spring football practice.
Incidental????
Where did you ever hear that lax contact should be incidental? Speak with any reputable coach anywhere, and they will tell you that one of the first things they look for in a lax player is a kid who is not going to back away from contact. I do agree that hitting is not the primary point of lacrosse, and that more coaches at the youth level out here need to emphasize that with their players. My team did have a game last year where 2 kids were knocked unconcsious by players on the other team with late hits, and I refuse to play that program until they change their focus to playing lacrosse. If the coach didn't pull those players from the field the referees should have kicked them off the field for deliberately trying to injure a player from the opposing team. I believe that officials need to send a message to programs that continue to disrespect the game, if the coaches don't. The kids only do what they are encouraged to do.
I agree
Keeping the youth programs "developmental" instead of competative is only hurting the development of the sport here. Having grown up playing on the east coast, where there are developmental programs during the off season, and competative leagues during the season it is easy to see the disparity between the west/east coast teams. A good example can be seen any time on e-lacrosse.com, where they have videos of east vs. west and east vs. east HS games updated almost daily. We have good athletes who have average skills, but the east has good athletes with good game skills. This is because they play competatively from a very young age. We need to increase the level of competition at the youth level by giving these kids more opportunities to play against more competative programs, and there are plenty of them accross our northern border. We also need more programs like Starz that promote player develpoment in the off season.
I agree
Totally agree with you. You forgot to mention how horrible officiating teaches all those youth players to play poorly as well.
officiating
WAlaxfan-
what horrible officiating are you writting about that teaches youth player to play poorly? Last time I checked it was coaches who taught players how to play and it was officials who made sure the rules are enforced.
Officiating WILL differ from offical to offical; but if you feel so strongly that it is "teaching all those youth players to play poorly" why dont you get out there and throw on the stripes.
I'm writing about the
I'm writing about the horrible officiating that reinforces the bad habits taught to players. For example, warding (never called), illegal body checks (always called wrong), cross-checking(never called), crease violations (called 10% of the time). I'm writing about how two inexperienced unsupervised 15 year old refs don't even know what out-of-bounds is, don't know when face-offs happen, or who gets possesion on a shot! I'm talking about the "top" official in the 7/8th grade league giving a pregame speech about how he is the safety guru, then allowing a player to play with a BROKEN helmet ("you think I'll call that!?!?) The officials at the youth level do not "make sure the rules are enforced" - they teach inexperienced coaches and players that it is ok to play bad lacrosse
Officiating
Maybe this should be on a different thread but:
If you want to complain about all the officiating at the youth level..then YOU officiate. Dont get me wrong I am sure that officiating at the youth level is fun and the level of competition is high....but be glad that there are 15 year olds who step up and do the work! If it were not for them then there would not be youth level games.
Nice
Good point.
consistent
I coach at the 3-4, and 5-6 level, and this year the ref's we have had have been consistent, and I haven't had a single complaint. Ref's have the hardest jobs in our sport in this state. This is because of the separate rules for the different age groups(Also, the reason why we aren't progressing as quickly at the youth levels). One game they are working a youth 3-4 game the next they are working a HS game, both with different rules. If the coaches do a good job teaching their kids the game the referees should have a minimal impact. Good job this year refs.
WA cant be at that level for
WA cant be at that level for a long time becuase it is a process. Every year the level in washington definatly does get better because each team gets more depth with solid lacrosse players. When the competition continues to rise and every single player can potentually be a "play maker" is when washington can contend. and the best lacrosse is not in strong island but they are good. I think the best high school lacrosse is in upstate new york.
the power house of the
the power house of the nation is in long island. They will crush any team here in washington.
This weekend we can find out how good upstate teams are in the northwest inivitational
NWI
Who from Upstate is coming out for the NW invitational?
no
not in our lifetimes
wtf
Those are not even elite lacrosse areas. much less states. if you look at rosters of any college team the majority of those players will be from LI, Balto or upstate. There are elite programs in the Philly area and prep schools in Mass. There are no elite programs in Vermont. Mercer, bainbridge, Garfield, Issy would all smoke Vermont teams.
Only if we learn how to
Only if we learn how to spell the names of our competition. Also, if you knew anything about lacrosse you would know that only one of the areas you mentioned is an elite state. Also, one of the places you mentioned is actually a city.
redlyon is talking about
redlyon is talking about hotbeads for lacrosse. by the way, teams from the south are solid as well. it will be a long time before WA lacrosse is considered a solid state, much less a hotbead for lacrosse. im not sure how i feel about BI,MI,Garfield and "Issy" being able to smoke all vermont teams, dont jump ahead of yourself there. as far as players from WA representing their state, the number continues to grow with some going D1, some elite D3. basically if your in middle school, dont expect to have WA be lumped in w/LI, baltimore and upstate by the time you are a senior. maybe if your in elementary school, but i doubt it.
Start naming teams from
Start naming teams from Vermont that would bean Washington teams...
aside from that if you want to put Washington teams against legit teams from LI, Upstate and Balto, it will be a long day.
Now, There are many teams in those areas that the best washington teams can beat. In every section of NY there are great teams as well as poor teams. Mercer had a geat game last year against Shaker but put them up agaisnt Niskayuna and the game would be much different. Like wise with every part of the country. Teams like West I. and SWR on the Island would destroy Washinton teams, while Washington teams would crush many teams.
ok....
so how about this, we take the WA state champs, and match them up against any state champ team from the east coast. i can give 95% certainty that the WA state team will lose. The elite programs of the west simply cannot match up to the elite programs of the east. As far as west teams being able to beat random teams for the east or south, that definetly happens. Your right about MI last year, but BI was doing that years before competing against title teams from Cali, texas, japan, and florida. good stuff.
well...
two years ago mi played fayetville manlius, who days before beat west genessee. mi played them to a two goal game and led for the majority of it. the next day they lost by like 8 goals to albany academy who was also a very respected program, but not to the degree of fm. my point is that any given day west coast teams can compete and even possible win against eastcoast powerhouses. Moreover, they also can get spanked by em too. the major difference between there and here is that there, everyone is a bi, issy, garfield, or mi.
true, kinda
your right about MI beating FM last season, but the point I want to make is that only an exceptional WA team, MI 2005, BI 2002&2003, etc can win against east coast elite teams. i dont think that any given day WA teams can beat east coast teams. It takes a great team and a great game for WA teams to compete agaisnt the east. Good point about every team back east beiing like BI, MI, Garfield or issaquah. teams who play against solid competion season long, like the east, have a clear advantage. also one could look at the coaches of the east compared to the west. almost every coach on the east has a long history of lacrosse, where as some/most teams in WA look for someone who has played the game and needs some pocket money. no offense to any of the coaches in WA, i know there are some great ones. one last point, kids go to the best high school, private or public to play lacrosse on the east. the west its just whatever school your closest to. maybe that should be a different topic.