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DeFacto State Championship for Senior Youth Teams
Submitted by gobig on Mon, 2007-05-14 09:24.
Call it a “League”, “Division” or “State” Championship – it does not matter…the BYLW Eastside Tournament had all of the best teams in the state participate....thus it was the defacto State Championship. The fact that the state's favorites came to compete, one team all the way from Bainbridge speaks to their desire to want to hold the Champion label. When MI, Bainbridge, Eastlake, Issaquah, and Bellevue all show up and compete that is the best of the state.
Much to the chagrin of the “everyone deserves a trophy” and the “let’s not have anyone feel bad” crowds. Competition is a fact of sports….yes, even at the youth levels – and it should be – it is a fact of life! Let’s let us all get over the illusion that we can change the competitive nature of sports and BRING BACK THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS. We will have many more great Lacrosse players as a result.
Congrats to Issaquah White who won the defacto State Championship! Issaquah beat MI black in a close game. The fact that a newly formed team in mid February, with some first year players on it beat a team that has been playing together regularly since last August is a testament to us all that we all can compete if we work hard enough. Competition breeds hard work from players and coaches.
I am going to get my son on the wall right now! Next year I want him to work to be a State Champion! Isn't hard work what one of our main goals with our kids needs to be? Give them something to shoot for...BRING BACK THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS!
Who cares?
Who cares? Its middle school, if they get a state championship, great, if not then whatever. They'll be in high school someday.
US Lacrosse Believes in "State Champions"
The BoB event now appears to be a collaboration with US Lacrosse. see www.uslacrossecup.com. You will note is say "will play for the title of US Lacrosse Cup Washington State Champion"..........it appears that our governing body US Lacrosse too believes it is ok to compete for the title of "Champion", why BYLW won’t wake up and let the boys compete is mind-boggling!
see walax posting Battle of Bothell Tourney June 22-24th: For Love of the Game
Submitted by walax on Wed, 2007-05-23 15:11.
The premise seems to be that
The premise seems to be that play-offs or championships "fuel the fire" for more aggresive play and change the focus of the regular season games. When some teams play ruthless, hit-to-hurt, lacrosse all the way down to the 3/4 level the flag is thrown.
If you want the championships to return, "honor the game" and those few folks who have the control will stop worrying about aggressive play and will be more inclined to allow the boys to play a longer season i.e. playoffs. If honorable lacrosse was played every game, every week - the play-offs/championship would not have ever been debated and would still be in exsistence.
Championships - Yay or nay?
The youth players are competitive all season long. Whether they win or lose, playing for fun, or to win, they're competitive in some sense. Generally the players that want to have a Youth State Championship the most, are the players of the top teams. Needless to say, they're not the only ones, but generally the most eager for a championship.
I think if anyone is really doubting whether or not to have a Championship, the kids should vote. Maybe that's not an easy task, or maybe I'm crazy for suggesting it, but aren't the kids the ones playing?
I respect all the parents and coaches opinions, but I do think that if the kids really want to compete in a State Championship, let 'em do it. What youth player wouldn't get a rush out of playing in Memorial Stadium in front of a bunch of people? Call me crazy, but in my opinion (as a past youth player), the players should get to decide.
Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, but at the moment it just seems to be the most logical option.
Any thoughts?
k
i would rather have a youth championship then some exhibition between two random eastern washington teams
Championships or FEEL Good Games
It is nice that the organizers of the Championship events this weekend want to include everyone regardless of their experience, as they should, but COME ON, do we really need to have an exhibition game by "developing" teams? And pay to see it? I guess we all can FEEL good though knowing that we eliminated the playoffs for middle school teams and that they are all are deserving and not competitive. NOT!
Proof is in the attendance.
Championship day attendance was down, gee, why is that given the tremendous growth of Lacrosse in our state?………..middleschoolers had no connection to the day. Girls and exhibition games were the majority of the day. LAME! This event could be the peak of the season for all of the kids pre-high school to see what the best are doing but yet this segment of the WA state players was woefully underrepresented. How sad. Make the “Championships day” a day of good quality Lacrosse, several of the 7/8 teams would have given those DII teams a run.
Bring back the MS Championships!
Isn't that nice
Another dad trying to live vicariously through his son. What's next dad? Are you going to beat him senseless if he does not succeed? Or are you just going to teach him to win at any cost? Afterall whats the difference who he puts in a hospital as long as he has the best prison cell at McNeil Island??
I am all for a championship game for bragging rights or whatever but when you put in a context that "I am going to get my son on the wall right now! Next year I want him to work to be a State Champion! Isn't hard work what one of our main goals with our kids needs to be?" Except 7th and 8th graders should not be hard at work except to be 7 and 8 graders. With all the horse dung that happens to 7 and 8 graders you are worried about a championship? How about teaching little gobig to read and do math so he will have a job better than serving fish at Ivars.
He should work so hard at everything not just because he wants to be a state champion. He should work to get good grades and a degree that will take him alot farther than any 7th grade championship. How about working him hard to stay away from drugs? How does a parent look at this world and get to this conclusion that my child is going to be great because he won a state championship in 7th grade. That is total BS.
Life happens. My best friend in HS was going D1 to Penn "Linebacker U" St until our final game when his knee was destroyed (98% torn). It all went away. Scholarships. Everything. Gone in 7 seconds. We won a championship. BIG FRIGGIN DEAL!! Where did the championship get him
I wish you and your son well. I hope he does win a championship in whatever he chooses. I hope he learns that just being a participant and part of a team is worth more than a championship. I hope you learn that he is your son and while its fine for you to want something for him you realize you need to ask what it is he wants. I hope he wins your favor before it is too late.
Judge, Not Lest Ye Be Judged!
You say "7th and 8th graders should not be hard at work except to be 7 and 8 graders". My understanding of that statement is that you don't believe that sports should be a key role in a child's development, is that true? Should a kid not believe that hard work in sports that turns into success and being able to be called a part of a team that was the best in the entire state can translate into believing that hard work in other areas of life will equal that same success?
You misunderstand. As a
You misunderstand. As a parent, I do not want my child's only goal to be winning a state championship. How screwed up is that child going to be if he never ends up on that team that "wins it all". How many great athletes have never won a championship? How many mediocre athletes have won because they played as a team instead of relying on one or two good players.
When a child is in 7th or 8th grade, they are very impressionable. Yes teach them how to succeed at what they decide to do. If it is lacrosse, great. If not, that's fine too. Teach them to be well rounded. Read this month's issue of lacrosse; coaches are not looking for kids who spent every waking moment with a stick in their hands.
I object to GoBig's idea that somehow a sports championship means something. Yes it is nice to win, everybody would agree, but what will it matter when he's 40 has two kids and a mortgage? Yes my son looks at the pictures and the trophy and dreams about being hoisted on shoulders carrying a trophy someday. I do my best to teach him how to get there. I will teach him to work hard and to be the best he can be. I refuse, however, to make it a priority in his life.
BlindJustice's More Evil Twin?
How do you get from "I'll get my son on the wall" to his beating his son and the son putting kids in the hospital. Are you nuts? If you can't keep your emotions in check you might rethink your role in youth sports.
"...What's next dad? Are you going to beat him senseless if he does not succeed? Or are you just going to teach him to win at any cost? Afterall whats the difference who he puts in a hospital as long as he has the best prison cell at McNeil Island??..." WHAT IS THAT...?
He shouldn't work hard to be #1 in his class? Get a top ACT score? Top Sales rep? CEO of his company? Nobel winning scientist? Concert Pianist? We should all be teaching kids to do their best and to be the best if that's what they're capable of.
Not that it has any bering on this but I bet your friend cherishes his time on that Championship team. Oh, and I talked to him and he says if you'd hit your block, that guy wouldn't have taken out his knee.
Ex-Lax22
Interesting screen name. Does that mean you are full of it and need a little exlax. you are obviously so shallow that you did not read my whole post.
I too take exception..
... to the use of the term "State Champs" but in GoBig's defense, TYLA and the Seattle teams were involved in snuffing out the playoffs so it's not likely there'd have been interest in playing the top teams. TYLA also wouldn't designate a team in the Top Tier of teams(like it or not, BYLW had three divisions incl. a Premier vs A or B Divisions). So, when the schedules were being drawn and despite the fact that UP had a select team and a B team, UP Blue only got to play the one Premier team in early March. So, it's not hard to see why they wouldn't have been included in that top group's tourney. I'm sure UP will find a way to get those match-ups in a tourney in June so they don't have to just imagine what could have been based on a game from early March. (I heard MI Black destroyed everyone including that Issaquah White team in early March).
"Yes" for playoffs.
UP had two even teams. There
UP had two even teams. There was not a select team and a B team.
"Delusions of Grandeur"
Tournament? State championship? This was a jamboree. I am sure the back-door invitations and devious “brackets” were set up by fathers frustrated in the league vote, but it is still not a state championship.
There needs to be some logic put on the table here. It is clear that there is no need for a Middle School State Championship in order for lacrosse players to compete and improve, and to become better lacrosse players. There are no state championships at the MS level in any other state, yet VA, NY, MA, and any other number of states seem to produce pretty skilled players. “Go Big” seems to believe that lacrosse improvement and state championships are linked. Faulty logic.
What is missing in the argument is a discussion on coaching – not just lacrosse skills, but coaching to the developmental level of the players. Does it really take a desire to win a state championship for a coach to motivate MS players? This is lazy, inadequate coaching, something that has more of a home in little league baseball than lacrosse.
“Oh, the kids really want a state championship!” is also a load of crap. Of course they do. They also want to drive cars, drink beer, and stay up all night. It is up to the ADULTS to make sure that the environment they are brought up in is best suited to the to the maturity level they are at. There are good reasons why there are no other MS championships in other states.
Hard work? Sure! Competition? Absolutely! Success? Yup! There is no “illusion” on anyone’s part that these aspects do not have value. The only illusion is that it takes a state championship for players to find these in middle school lacrosse.
Most Live In Reality and The Few In Grandeur
I am not sure what level of team you had participating this last weekend in the Issaquah hosted tournament, but those of us 7/8 teams that were invited, were invited to participate in the "BYLW End of Year Eastside Tournament", not a Jamboree (defined as a gathering for fun). There were 5/6 and 3/4 teams there that were in a Jamboree. The difference being there was no advancement except for the 7/8 teams in 2 different divisions, an "A” (designated "A" teams) and an "E" (mostly experienced players) division. Those that continued to win continued to the Championship game in both divisions. The 7/8 teams did not play for fun, they competed to advance.
“Back-door, devious brackets, frustrated fathers?”, that is harsh. When the best teams are gathering and there is only one that is not there is would be silly not to invite all of the best - that is I am sure why Bainbridge showed up, invited or not. When you are a top tier team and you know it, you are going to seek out the best competition. Sometimes you win and sometimes you don't but you always want the best competition. We have fine athletes and coaches here in WA, and don’t we want to rise to the level of the other programs in the most established Lacrosse communities? This is done by raising our sights – when we got a whooping several times this year is was a valuable thing for our boys, the sights were raised and seemed to work harder. The results, they got better, a lot better. No, I don't have any skin in this "Champion" game - but it did not matter, better is still better.
With less than 40 7/8 teams in the state and only 10 competing at a high level is it really that hard to leap to let's have all the best compete? NO it is not. I too would agree that in other areas they DO in fact have playoffs, and why shouldn't they? Is Lacrosse not a competitive sport like most others and does it not come from the roots of our Native Americans who some called the sport the "Little Brother of War" (see book by Thomas Cennum Jr.).
Until we have too many teams in an upper (aka "E") division to manage in a playoff system we should have a best of the best playoff, and NO not because the kids want it, but so that we can show by example that hard work, good coaching, and more hard work can in fact elevate your game and be a Championship player. Many of the best players are not those that have been playing the longest or “developing” the longest, they are the ones that work the hardest. Don’t water down those that want more just so that those that are ok with mediocrity FEEL better.
Before the "holier than thou" train gets rolling...
We don't need a "State" Championship but - before the All-Powerful-Referee, "holier-than-thou" train gets rolling...let's check the facts: a 60 second google search produced the following excerpt from MYLA [that's MD Youth Lacrosse Assoc] By-Laws:
Post season play applies only to Midget and Junior divisions: [that's 5-6th, 7/8th grades]
In each division the top eight teams shall be eligible for the playoffs. The first round: the top seed will play the eight seed, the second seed plays the seventh seed, the third seed plays the sixth seed, and the fourth seed plays the fifth seed. The first round of games must take place during the first week of playoffs.
The second round: The winner of the top bracket (1 v 8) plays the winner of the second bracket (4 v 5), the winner of the third bracket (3 v 6) plays the winner of the fourth bracket (2 v 7). These games shall take place the second week of playoffs. The 2 winning teams shall then play in the MYLA championship game.
The MYLA does not award trophies. The winning team may not present trophies at the game site. Teams not complying with this rule will be considered the loser of the game.
Similar results bore ou No VA Youth Lacrosse which has half again as many teams as our whole state. They do have a Championship.
Not "State Champs" until playoffs say so...
While I, too, would've liked to see a State playoff system this year, I take exception to the "all the best teams in the state participated" line. In fact a team that beat Issaquah White in the regular season (UP Blue 10-Issy White 7) wasn't part of the event. Neither were other TYLA teams or teams from Vashon or Seattle. Even though I applaud the desire to have the kids complete, let's not rule out programs just because they are not from the Eastside. In fact, a playoff system will show that good lacrosse is played all over the Puget Sound. So until Issaquah wins a state title via the playoffs, let's only say they are the Eastside tournament winners not "de facto state champs."
Bring it back
I know that I would rather see a middle school state championship than a division II high school championship. In a middle school state championship, there is a clear winner for who is the best team in the state at that age level. And it is fun to see how the kids are improving from year to year. But in a division II game, even though they crown a winner at the end of each year, it's not very convincing because there is always going to be at least 10 other high school teams in the state that are better than them in division I.
"Competition" is valuable
I think there were different "camps" on the original decision to eliminate the playoffs. Some wanted no "State" Championship but were OK with playoffs and a "League Champ" (their point being that "State" should be reserved for HS Varsity); some wanted the status quo; others wanted the "no score, no playoffs" - as GoBig says "everyobody's a winner" approach. A & C voted together and away went the playoffs
I heard one coach supporting the elimination of the playoffs say after the decision: "we all knew who was going to be in the semis anyway (referring to Iss, Bain, MI, Bell)" That attitude comes typically from the "old guard" city and/or rural teams that will not likely ever have the numbers or facilities to rival the bigger programs. Is the answer to legislate a .500 season for everyone? To foster the highest level possible at any or all schools.
Nobody wants a "beat down" on the receiving or giving end each week but there were as many blow-outs this year as ever. We jsut didn't know about them beacause the scores weren;t posted. Did not having playoffs help? Not apparently. Some programs drive their best players and their newer players equally to get better - yet at different levels. Others don't want the pressure.
We all know that "rising tides raise all ships" but the little boats may get crushed by the freighters as the tides ebb and flow. If that's a concern, let's make a separate “marina” (More regional autonomy?), hopefully not at the fatal expense of BYLW.
Prodigy Elite Middle School Camp
You may want to check out the Prodigy Elite MS Camp taking place this August at UW. It's an invitation only camp bringing together 120 of the best incoming 8th and 9th graders from WA, OR and B.C. It's the first time WA has seen a camp of this caliber for youth players and a great opportinuity for those players wanting to get a little more 'competitive' We've got more info about it on our summer camps pages.
Champion Training
Prodigy is apparently offering to make us ALL State Champions. Thanks Walax! :-)
Dumb or Just Stupid?
One of the great dumb philosphy questions is, "If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" The obvious answer is: "Of course there is. What a stupid question.
If we take away standings, W-L records, playoffs, and the State Championship, does this make our kids less competitive, prepare them for the world, and give all a warm fuzzy? NO! of course not. It reduces all to mediocrity. How stupid is that! Amen to GoBig. Championships are a good thing - gives kids a target. It raises their playing level, expectations and with good results. Why didn't they have them this year?
Here! Here!
I'll knock glasses to that.
The youth league(s) are no longer dominated by the traditional MI and BI and Issy. I dont think teams will be taken seriously unless there is some type of ranking or state tournament.
i think its safe to say
i think its safe to say issaquah and mercer still dominate the youth league
the last three years in the M/S championship or w.e has been issy vs BI, issy vs MI and issy vs MI