2009 All-American Selections, should there be a DII AA?
Submitted by walax on Mon, 2009-02-09 11:01.
lots of discussion about the number of voting members in the WHSBLA and their divisional status. 2/3 of the HS teams are DII, they are required for the AA selections, yet don't have representation in the selections. Should DII have an All-American? Should DI have the other two? Why do we have only 3 AAs when Oregon has 6? How are we counting our Varsity programs?
im pretty sure the only
im pretty sure the only rising junior in the state that was invited to Blue Chip plays for DII. And to the guy who said that if you take any DII player, they wouldnt be able to compete with players from maryland or the east coast, look at the starz program, there's a pretty large amount of Starz players that play for DII teams that I have seen compete with players from maryland and other places on the east coast. The program is made up of alot of DII players and they hold up just fine on the east coast. I'm not saying that any DII player in the past has deserved to be an All-American, or that there are going to be DII players in the near future that deserve to be All-American, I just think that the option should be open for the possibility that a DII player does deserve to be an AA. Also keep in mind that being voted for AA isnt based solely on your play on the field.
Blue Chip
The rising juniors who attended blue chip were Austin Franks of Vashon, Connor Beckwith and Hap Giraud of Mercer and Cole Nordstrom of Bellevue all of whom play in D1
This coming summer, not last
This coming summer, not last summer, there may be D1 players attending this summer also, but the only rising junior i've heard of attending the camp this summer is out of D2
An invitation to one camp
An invitation to one camp does not warrant all-american status. Or even AA consideration for that matter.
The notion that the Team
The notion that the Team Washington coaches somehow selected DI players over DII players because they wanted to look out for themselves is RIDICULOUS and shows a complete lack of knowledge of the lacrosse community in Washington.
I'm sure the Team Washington coaches would have loved to put a DII player on the team just to avoid uninformed criticism such as this. Unfortunately though, there was not one DII player that could even slightly be justified as good enough for Team WA.
A number of DII players were at the tryout and all of them simply weren't good enough to be on the team. DII players had a better chance of making the team not worse.
In response to a couple other points... Everyone should note that the DI state champ did play the DII state champ and Issaquah scored Twenty.
Finally, (and this isn't something for Washington Lacrosse to be proud of) but if a team has one player good enough to be All-American they will have moved up to Division I by that players senior year. If you don't believe me look at Issaquah, Northshore, Seattle Prep. Issaquah had an all-american last year and Prep and Northshore will certainly at least have players being discussed this year and in the years to come. Its not exactly good news but its the truth.
Hard but not
Hard but not impossible,
Todd Thorpe became an all american while playing for curtis when they played in D2
Dude, Todd Thorpe is the
Dude, Todd Thorpe is the man. That guy is by far one of the greatest humans to walk this planet.. are you sure there was even two divisions back then?
ya there were
two divisions back then. and i agree, Todd Thorpe IS the man
totally agree with
wilddecker in regards to players in DII.
Good post
can anyone
think of a division 2 player last year that would've been more worthy than Caldwell, Dayton, or Travis?
i don't want to say....
that there aren't quality players in D2 because there are, but definitely not deserving of all-american. if you look at the first team all-state for D1 last year (which is i believe all of the guys that are considered for all-american) each and everyone of those guys, even those that did not get AA would beat out any of the possible candidates for AA in D2...
Alright so two things in
Alright so two things in response...
1) I don't think anyone would deny that it is ridiculous that Oregon has 6 and we have 3. Haha especially considering this is a Washington forum. What would be interesting is putting this question on Westside and seeing the Oregon kids try to justify it poorly like always.
2) As for DII All Americans all that needs to be said is....
Is there a player in DII who you think has even the slightest slightest chance of being one of the top three players in the state this year?
or taking the question further
Name any DII player ever who has deserved to get All American and didnt?
I don't think there is one, at least in recent history, and this year certainly won't have any exceptions.
Jake Bos
yep. Over 100 points in his junior season. If he played D1, he would have adjusted and played up to the competition. Not saying sure fire or anything, but he was probably capable.
Oh come on. I honestly
Oh come on. I honestly considered writing at the bottom of the post "don't say Jake Bos". I have nothing against the guy and in truth have only seen him play a handful of times but all that needs to be said is he didn't even make Team Washington. That means that the number one DII player that anyone can think of in recent history was worse than at least twenty DI players his senior year.
Also, I don't want my earlier comment to come across as if DII players don't work hard. All im saying is that no DII player has been near deserving All American and this year is no exception.
All you got to look at is Team Washington. In both years, Team Washington has invited the top DII players to its tryout and both years not one DII player has made it. Why even discuss if a DII player is deserving to be recognized as a top three player when not one is in the top twenty two years running?
Team Washington
The selection for Team Washington is questionable for Division II players. Even though Division I players are automatically invited to tryout by being all-state, Division II players must be nominated by their coach. Thus, a Division II player must retain a decent relationship with his head coach.
If anything the same rules must apply to all players, thus leveling the playing field, at least affording Division II players the opportunity to make Team Washington's squad.
All this talk about D2
All this talk about D2 players and Team WA is BS. The best players in D2 ARE invited to the tryouts, and NO players made it! Does that tell you something? Work on your game before trying to be a big dog. IF there is a case of someone that should have made it, then we would have heard it by now. Chill.
maybe
because team washington (whatever that means) doesn't hold d2 players in high regard. I know what you mean, and I agree mostly, I'm just saying his junior year he has definately a top 10 junior in the state. Unfortunately, he dropped off his senior year due to a variety of reason...
Someone who is not able to
Someone who is not able to generate a positive trend of productivity throughout their lacrosse career is not a good lacrosse player.
Also, the fact that you do not know what Team Washington is shows an extreme lack of connectedness with the washington lacrosse scene.
Why wont the DII players let go of Jake Bos? He wasn't good.
Valid points
Valid points, that I will concede, but lets not lose sight of the fact that Team Washington is coached by the DI state champ coach and DI runner up, coach. I am not calling into question any coaches integrity, as they all want to win, but there will always be skepticism, into that selection process. DI coaches will continue to select DI players, its social politics at its finest. They want their players up there when they aren't the coaches, and vice a versa, current coaches will want their players on that team when they aren't the ones coaching. So even while I concede valid points to your argument, your argument has weaknesses due to the current structure of a flawed system.
Why isn't the DII state champ coach also an assistant, they have to win, just as much as a DI coach. In this case, Northshore coach could have taken part, that coach has seen the game time caliber of, at least some DII elite players and could lobby on their behalf (even though N-shore moved up to DI). In that case a DII coach could have been selected by his peers to act as the assistant.
I chuckle at the idea, but perhaps we should create a Team Washington DII, and have a playoff between the DI and DII team in late June, that way no one can complain, there will be no arguments to the dominance of the winning team. Then if a DII attackman shreds up a DI pole, and has 3 goals in 6 on 6, or a DII pole shuts down a DI AA atackman, or lastly the F/O's DII dominates at the X, we know that, that kid deserves / was denied a spot on "The Team Washington." Just having some fun thinking, dont take anything to offense regarding the caliber of players who have made the team in the past, just specualting
If the point of Team Washington is to get the best kids recruited, well then that should be the best...if there is a DII player truly amongst the best
"just specualting". How does
"just specualting". How does your argument hold any weight when you are admiting to speculation? The DII kids are given a fair tryout. One could "specualte", and say that their are DI guys who dont even get invited to the Team WA tryout who are better players than the DII players who are invited. The bottom line is that no system is going to be perfect but Team Washington is as close to perfect as you're going to get.
Speculating
The speculation was restricted to the DI vs DII "Team Washington" playoff, I think would be an interesting idea, to speculate about. I am not saying that Team Washington, is not comprised of quality lacrosse players, I have seen the Starz Elite, Travel Team. I imagine that a lot of those kids are the same as Team Washington, THEY CAN PLAY THE GAME, let me say that again, THEY CAN PLAY. I am arguing that the selection process may be flawed, for who makes the team, especially due to the social politics, involved with only DI coaches on the team. There are DII kids who can play and can run with the DI players on an individual basis, we have seen that in the Starz Program.
Regarding the heart of this matter, DII AA. Remember that if a DI kid didn't live where they just happened to live, they would NEVER be an AA. As it currently stands a DII player will NEVER be an AA. I agree let the cream rise to the top, the Top Teams are in the top Division, but individual accolades should not be restricted to just those who happen to live in the area where a DI program exists.
This reminds me of back East in MD and NY, and its disgusts me. The game is supposed to be INCLUSIVE, the system we have set up is totally EXCLUSIVE. Where do we really want to see the game go in this state?
I agree with yaap 100% But I
I agree with yaap 100%
But I also have a few anecdotes
1) "There are DII who can play and can run with DI players on an individual basis". Last I checked they dont do one-on-one drills at champ camp. Lacrosse is a team sport and each player needs to understand team dynamics on and off the field. Athleticism and stick skills are not the only factors when picking a team, lacrosse IQ is just as, if not more, important. Im not saying there aren't DII players that understand the game, im simply asking you to stop using this as an argument because it is irrelevent.
2) DI coaches are chosen for Team Washington because they have coached a team to the highest tier of high school lacrosse in Washington. If you would like to set up some sort of panel that would pick and chose coaches from DI and DII then you are creating more politics and dissension as well as ruining the legitimacy of Team WA
3) Stop complaining about school boundaries.
It's growing dude, it takes
It's growing dude, it takes time. Give it ten years.. Issaquah, Mercer, Skyline, BI, Bellevue and I think all the prep/private schools are the only teams in the state that have all of the players go to their actual high school. This is something that every other team should be striving for. Speaking Div 1, for the last 8 years only three different teams have made it the State Championship. This is just my opinion, but I believe a lot of there success is due to how close their teams are. Being together at school, on and off the field, everyday for a whole school year. What I'm getting at is look at those past 8 years, the All Americans, beside Caldwell and Bayly, were all playing for the top 3 teams in the state, which includes Division 2. In '08, the D1 State Champs Issaquah blew out the D2 Champs Northshore .. who would have been a candidate for last year? Who will be a candidate this year over Snow, Stevenson, McClain, Carr, Shields, Director, Mutzel, or Rhodes? Div 2 has been very inconsistent in past years, teams moving up and down, back and forth between divisions. Don't worry about AA's for now, if someone so happens to come across, then the league will take a look at him, but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
bung
DII teams just need a coach who will convince their players that being number one is in every player's interest.
I do agree having all of your players going to one school does build up a team sense, something that some teams may not get the chance to make.
Regardless though, I'll speak of Issaquah because I know it first hand. In the beginning Issaquah was split between Liberty, Skyline and Issy. When I was in 8th grade, Issaquah's first year of existence, they were a start up team and made it to the DIII title game and barely lost to Curtis. (who dropped all the way from DI when they definitely didn't need to) My freshman year we made it to the DII semi-finals, and barely lost to Eastside. Sophomore year we won DII and beat every single D1 program handily, except for Mercer Island who we were actually beating at half time. The rest everyone knows, a pair of losses to MI in the D1 championship.
Anyway, my point is that we came from no where, just like everyone else. It takes dedication, no one is being slighted, it just takes a lot of work.
That story brings tears to
That story brings tears to my eyes
Yeah Team WA is legit
Yeah Team WA is legit
Nick Tierney got votes when
Nick Tierney got votes when he was in D2 as a Junior. Thats the only one I know of.
The all-state game would be a great time for that experiment. See if you can't push for it.
Yeah and if I would have
Yeah and if I would have gotten it, it would have been a travesty considering scoring all those goals that year against first year defensemen means nothing compared to what who was it, chirls, Picha and Sangoerzan. I don't think its fair to ever give a DII kid all american, he didn't prove himeself on a high level
haha since when did you turn
haha since when did you turn into mr. modesty?
Word though, this kids were legitty
Well said Verdict All D2
Well said Verdict
All D2 needs to worry about for the next couple years is to keep growing and work on the basics.
Yes DII should get an AA
There are flaws in this system. There always will be, and the selection never be perfect, but it is a gross injustice to completely deny the boys of DII an opportunity, just because they are playing by the rules and happen to live in the location of a DII program. Player exist out in the DII world that compete with the DI players, they committ themselves to lacrosse and improving their individual abilities. The AA nod's should not be exclusive to the DI players. One spot should be reserved for the most dominate DII player.
There is a reason why
There is a reason why Division 2 doesn't receive AA honors, simply becuase AA stands for All AMERICAN. It's great that 2/3rds of the teams in Washington are in Division 2, that shows the growth of the sport, and in ten years hopefully lacrosse will be WIAA and we won't have to worry about Division 1 and 2.. but there is no way any player in Division2 could compete against east coast teams, colorado, etc. Cause thats what All Americans are suppose to do.. Snider, Dayton & Bryan Gilbreath, Travis Wright, Caldwell, Taylor.. Put a D2 player against them
Division 2 AA's
Taking nothing away from the DI All Americans of the past but I bet if you put one of them on any DII team, they would have been very good but wouldn't have received the same notoriety that they experienced with a DI team. Reason: the level of play. You take some of the better DII players and put them on a top DI team that can pass/catch/run offenses and over time there is no doubt some of them would be considered for a AA vote. Take a Travis Wright or Caldwell Rohrbach and put them on a low level DII team as freshman and who knows where they would be. There are plenty of DII players who will play at the next level - be it club or DIII. Don't discount their ability/desire/work ethic just because of where they are forced to play.
Next level D2 players
Just something to say to the D2 players playing MCLA or D3 comment. I'm a D2 player and will be playing NCAA DII lacrosse this next fall, and no not at GCU or NDNU. However I believe that I could not have played at some top tier DIII teams. Some DIII teams could easily go off on DII teams and a couple could even compete with the mid range crop of DI teams, lets just remember that division in lacrosse is not solely on skill but more on money. Who is willing to give out scholarships e.t.c.